Essential Tennis Podcast #99
Welcome to the Essential Tennis Podcast. If you love tennis and want to improve your game, this podcast is for you. Whether it's technique, strategy, equipment or the mental game. Tennis professional Ian Westermann is here to make you a better player. And now here's Ian.

[Ian Westermann] Hi and welcome to the Essential Tennis Podcast. Your place for free, expert tennis instruction that can truly help you improve your game. Today's episode of the Essential Tennis podcast is brought to you by somersetsportsperformance.com.

Thank you very much for joining me today on episode #99 of the Essential Tennis Podcast. Episode 100 is just around the corner and if you have any ideas on maybe something fun or special to do for the 100th episode, send me an e-mail and let me know. I'm curious what you guys think about maybe something a little bit different to do for the 100th show and to be honest I don't have any great ideas. And so if nobody sends me any ideas that I like, or if I don't hear from anybody. I'll just do a normal show as usual and I'm not want to really make a big deal out of it or anything, but I'm curious to see if you guys have any cool ideas on how to kind of celebrate the 100th episode.

So let me know if you have any ideas at ian@essentialtennis.com. Well let's get started with today's topic, it's going to be about doubles communication. Sit back, relax and get ready for some great tennis instruction. [music] [music] [music] [music]
My guest today on the podcast is a good friend of mine, a teaching professional and also a past guest on the podcast-- Mr. Mark Hammelman. Mark Welcome back to the show.
[Mark Hammelman] Hello, Essential Tennis. What's going on Ian?
[Ian Westermann] Yes, it's good to have you back. It's been a while since I had you on the show last and I think the last time I have you on the show we were talking about doubles and that's what we're going to be talking about today as well. I like talking to you about doubles, because you and I are kind of on the same page after having played together in college and you are a real solid player and a good teacher. So I like having you on the show to get your opinion and converse about topics having to do with doubles. So thanks a lot for coming back on the show.
[Mark Hammelman] Anytime. I mean you just never invited me back on I think.
[Ian Westermann] Sorry, I've been slacking.
[Mark Hammelman] [inaudible] No that's good. Especially I like doubles, because that's a lot of times I think people have trouble understanding it and it's not too tough as long as you play [inaudible] the idea behind what you need to do and what not. Opposed to singles which is so wide open as doubles strategy, especially it's really beneficial [inaudible]
[Ian Westermann] Yes, there's a lot of nuances to doubles because you have double the players on the court, there's just a lot more going on. There's a lot more action and I think that for players who are not really experienced at it, it can be difficult to figure out and it's kind of easy to feel lost out there. I definitely remember when I started playing doubles in college, like a lot of college players, I played singles in high school exclusively and so you kind of just get thrown in there in college. I remember kind of hating that at first, but after you gets some experience and you kind of watch good players around you play and kind of learn the game first hand it can feel a little more comfortable, but yes there's definitely a lot more to it than singles, because there's so much going on.
[Mark Hammelman] Right, definately.
[Ian Westermann] So let's get to today's question and it comes to us from Dana Mark who's in Nebraska. And Dana is definitely an important part of our forums. He posts quite a bit along with his son Bryan and here's his question. He said, 'When playing doubles what types of communication are most helpful? I know it is good to let your partner know when you want to switch or when you are switching. I don't communicate much at all with my partner. What things are good to communicate for playing effective doubles both between point, during points and during change-overs and how can I get myself and my partner to communicate more during points?'

So let's split this up into the 3 categories that Dana laid out for us and the 3 topics that he wanted us to talk about are, what to communicate about drawing points or when to communicate, also between points and during change-over' as well. So let's break it down into those 3 categories and we'll start off with drawing points and Dana mentions definitely the most common and probably the most well known reason for communicating and that is during the switch usually when you or your partner get lobbed and the net player is not able to cover the lob. They're not able to get to it and the other player ends up having to go cover for them and a lot of times a switch is called, because the off player's going back behind the net player to cover that lob.

And so this is probably the most well known type of communication. Once you go ahead and throw out one other example Mark, one example that comes to mind right away when you think about communicating during the doubles points.

[Mark Hammelman] OK. Yes. Another obvious one is balls down the middle of the court. Who's going to take it, forehand, backhand, kind of balls that could go either way especially lobs and overheads, short lobs. Any ball that either partner could get, I would definitely recommend communicating. You know this is fairly obvious, one thing I saw a lot is that you know you can't over communicate in doubles.

Any ball down the middle of the court especially, definitely I tell my lessons if anything your partner can get out of the way. So that's one definitely and I think that's fairly straight forward. I got it, you got it. Keep it short and to the point. I've heard a lot of different expressions, but just let them know. It's yours or mine. I've heard too much, even at a decent level, 'Oh, I thought you had that ball.' They kind of laugh with each other and then I kind a laugh with them too, that's funny of it. In my head, I'm thinking, I tell you 10,000 times start laughing and hit the ball.

[Ian Westermann] Yes, it seems like it probably an obvious one to a lot of listeners, but I totally agree that I see it way to often as I'm teaching and as I watch club matches. It happens way too much that both players say nothing on a ball down the middle-- and you're right whether that be a drive, a passing shots, attempts down the middle or a lob. It doesn't matter. I see it way too often that both players kind of make the assumption that the other person is going to get it and both just kind of stand there and kind of stare at each other as the ball goes down the middle and that's a crappy way to lose doubles points.

You guys, I'm going to say my theory on this Mark and I'm going to talk about the ball that's driven first down the middle and I'm curious to see what your thoughts are on my opinion to that, but I think amateur players way too often are concern with stuff like who's forehand is down them the middle. I think that most of the time that the players who is closest to the net should be taking that regardless of forehand or backhand and I find that a lot of club players are kind of surprise when I tell them that, but I think that takes away a lot of the guess work of whose it is.

I feel like amateur players a lot of times get really caught up with minors details. Again like the forehand or the backhand volley or whose side it's on. In my opinion if you're closer than your partner and you're able to reach it, you're able to get to it, most of the time you should be going for it. Kind of no questions aske3d and if you end up of not being able to make a play out of it then your partner who's a little farther behind you or maybe even back on the baseline hopefully made a move as well and hopefully be able to cover it, but I think when the ball is driven down the middle specifically, I don't think there should be a whole lot of talking.
There's not a lot of time. I think both players should probably go for it and whoever closest usually should take it,] if it's that's all possible. Well, what do you think about that Mark?
[Mark Hammelman] Yes, absolutely. Yes, one thin the forehand takes middle. And yes that's true, if you are both even. You're both equally [inaudible]
[Ian Westermann] Yes, how often does that actually happen though?
[Mark Hammelma] Right exactly. I mean you really both should be both at the base line where you probably lose a lot of points. I mean it happens, but yes let's say I've got a back hand volley and my partner has a forehand ground stroke, I don't care, I'm taking the back hand lobbey.

Even if my weakness and let's say my partner's strength is his forehand. I'm still hitting my backhand volley, it's just a better play. So yes the net person, or even the closer person [inaudible] then worst case scenario, [inaudible] I mean who knows. Let's say you're going for the volley, you missed it since you're the closest person, I mean your partner should have you backed up. But really, there are no arguments that I can hear, where the closest person should take the ball.

[Ian Westermann] I agree and now let's talk about the other kind of type of shot the could be down the middle and that's the lob which definitely throws a couple of more variables in there, because they're so much time that both players have to be able to react to the ball. And I think this is a little more tricky than the drive where as both of us just said, you guys should be using the person that is closest to the net to try to cut that shot off as often as possible. On the lob when you guys have some more time to actually set up and hopefully take an overhead. I think there's a couple more things that come into play.

If you're both right handed or if you're weird enough to both be left handed then I think that whoever is most easily able to get a forehand overhead on the ball should probably take it. I think this is where communication really is very, very crucial. Because on a lot of these shots-- the lobs down the middle it's probably really possible that both people could have a play on it and I think this is a little bit subjective for both players and I think somebody just needs to take charge as quickly as possible most of the time. Kind of like outfielders in baseball calling each other off-- whichever person feels most comfortable I think really needs to take charge both vocally and physically and really take the shot.

I think a lot of times club level players almost kind of try to get into a discussion and it would be like 'you got it?' Then the ball goes out. You got it and there's some confusion. I think that if you guys were going to do anything, just be assertive and either say yours or mine or I got it or I mean I got it would be probably the best or if you just don't feel comfortable, say yours and let your partner take it, but I think probably the key is to do it as quickly as possible. What do you think Mark?

[Mark Hammelman] Yes, definitely. I mean whatever you're doing has be done right away and your first movement will probably come before anything comes out of your mouth anyways, you never know your initial reactions. So both players I think initially and this relates to almost any shot, should be going after the ball and then I think the verbal should come very quickly later and after that and then get the heck out of the way.
One example, is my partner in College who was after you Ian, his name was Kyle and he had a great overhead. And the overhead is not my best shot, so he had no problem... [inaudible]
[Ian Westermann] What about your sharp angle slice overhead. Didn't you like that shot?
[Mark Hammelman] [inaudible] I quickly learned that's not my best shot. There's nothing wrong with that and [inaudible]. But there's nothing wrong with that. A lot of that too is that we play together for a full year or two [inaudible] any overhead down the the middle with his and even some balls that were on my half, [inaudible] he would take them. And I was completely fine by that and even a couple of times where it would clearly be on my half and he would say mine and I would literally come up and be like no I got it.

[Ian Westermann] Sure. [Mark Hammelman] Because one thing too, if it falls on your half, It's supposed to be yours. So I think it happened a couple of times where my partner will say I got and then I call him off and say I got it. And there's still a little time for him to get back into position, but yes we're constantly communicating. Even if it's obvious, I mean just make the effort, say something and too often, I hear nothing.

[Ian Westermann] Yes and those of you listening hopefully you watch doubles on TV at least once in a while. I know that it not on terribly often, but when you guys do watch professional level doubles or maybe if you get a chance to watch a college match-- some kind of high level of tennis. These are players who have tons of playing experience with each other. Whether just in practice or actual competitive matches and they are talking constantly and it's interesting to me that typically the lower the level of doubles player in tennis, the less they talk. When in fact it should be the opposite that these are probably players who have not played together very much. In fact they are probably switching partners often.

And these are players who are obviously not as confident with their strokes as obviously a professional player or a top level college player and yet there's such a lack of communication and Dana is being very honest by saying, 'I really don't talk much at all. I don't communicate with my partner very much at all.' Well, this is the way that Dana, you and all the rest of our listeners can absolutely set yourselves apart by-- as Mark said a couple minutes ago, kind of over-communicate and when you guys watch top players on TV, they're constantly talking during points, between points, during change-overs-- all the different examples Danny gave and this easy over head is a great example of that.

And like Mark said, either player can take it if there's a lot of different variables that are coming to play, but the big thing here is communicate as often as possible, whenever there's any doubt at all. Even if you think it's obvious, go ahead and communicate something and say if you've got it. I definitely will say I've got it when the ball is directly to me and even if it's the easiest overhead in the world, I will still call it, because it just takes care of any possible confusion.
[Mark Hammelman] Right.
[Ian Westermann] Alright, so I've got 2 other examples here of communicating during a point that I think could be helpful for Dana. One would be after putting up a weak lob, let's say you and I are playing Mark and maybe I'm returning serve and our opponent has hit a really good serve to me and I'm doing all I can just to kind of touch it and I throw up a lob. There's nothing wrong guys with letting your partner know that you're about to put them in a tough spot. As long as you don't wait until just before your opponent hits the overhead and slams it at your partner which obviously is too late anyway. What do you think about letting your partner know Mark when you put up a kind of a sitter and your partner's about to be a sitting target?
[Mark Hammelman] Yes absolutely. Whoever hits the shot, they are the first ones to know the quality of their shot.
[Ian Westermann] Yes, sure.
[Mark Hammleman] After a weak lob, I definitely let my partner know.
[Ian Westermann] Yes.
[Mark Hammelmann] If anything just they can get out of the way. But more often or not, they'll hopefully gets 3 or 4 steps back, they won't get back to the base line most likely, but they'll probably getting into no-man's land. And that's one of the few times where I'd say it's better to be in no man's land and service line, because you're returning [inaudible]. At least it gives you a couple of seconds to react and if anything you partner will like you, because that's the correct place. We talked about it in previous podcast-- That's the correct place that your opponent should be hitting the ball right after you. So yes definately, if my partner let's me know, I'll back up a little bit and lot of times I'll get some racket on it, and who knows, sometimes I'll win the point.

[Ian Westermann] Sure. And a good way to let your partner know is myself personally I'll just say short. I'll call out short as soon as I realize that the ball has come weakly off my racket and it's going to be a weak shot especially if it's a high shot. I'll just say short to my partner so that they know it is about to be a weak shot. Any special way that you communicate that Mark?

[Mark Hammelman] Yes. My backup partner, yes, that definitely works too. And one other thing, if your partner is doing the correct thing, he's not going to know if it's a weak lob at all, because he shouldn't be looking back.
[Ian Westermann] Sure, right.
[Mark Hammleman] [inaudible] So if your partner's doing the right thing, you absolutely have to let him know what's going on, because they're going to have no idea and [inaudible]
[Ian Westermann] Yes. I agree. One more situation here where I personally like to talk during points, and that is kind of to give encouragement to my partner. I tend to be during competition pretty animated and fiery which is interesting, because it's kind of the opposite of my personality, but Mark knows that I get pretty into matches.

Let's say for example a weak volley has been hit or maybe a drop volley or an angle volley and it's obviously a well hit shot to my partner's side and they're starting to go for it, but it's going to be really difficult, a lot of times I like to kind of shout a word of encouragement-- you go it or go or something like that to kind of spur him on. And this might be for everbody's partner, but I kind of like to be vocal like that and kind of give my partner a kick in their pants sometimes when their really hustling for a shot and working hard. Any other circumstances like that or maybe comments on that circumstance? [Mark Hammelman] No, that one is good too. I think that's much more a bi product of your enthusiasm-helping them get to the ball, but it definitely can't hurt. I do the same thing too-- 'Just get there! Go, go!'
[Ian Westermann] Yes.
[Mark Hammelman] Who knows maybe you see that as the drop shot or what not before you partner does, but yes I do the same thing, but you know that's good too. There's maybe a few times and maybe [inaudible]. At times it's not good to communicate with your partner for example to tell him where he should be standing. Sometimes you have to worry about what you're doing. You shouldn't be telling your partner what he should be doing, and certain circumstances like that [inaudible]
[Ian Westermann] You mean during the points or between the points?
[Mark Hammelman] No during the points.
[Ian Westermann] Alright, yes.
[Mark Hammelamn] That should definitely happened after a points or after a match [inaudible]. And maybe you should move up a couple of steps. A lot of times I see unnecessary communication, sometimes too, but over all I would say the lack of communication is definitely there. I don't see that quite as often.

[Ian Westermann] Yes, let's save topic for a different day. I know what you're talking about. You are basically saying kind of the over bearing partner who is trying to coach their doubles partner and kind of take the person [inaudible] or somebody's trying to fix your stroke. Like you're trying to play.
[Mark Hammelman] That's a great analogy.
[Ian Westermann] I think there's fine line there. I think you want to be on the same page with your partner and definitely talk about tactics and maybe their doing something that's being detrimental. I think there's a certain way that you can definitely approach that and end up being a good call and help out your chances of winning a match, but if it's a constant thing and you're constantly telling your partner 'you going to do this, you going to do that, you got to change your aim for that shot or you got to swing' Certainly you should not be saying you should swing this way. That can definitely be detrimental for sure.

[Mark Hammelman] Yes, I just wanted to put it out there, because I know maybe a lot of our listeners [inaudible]. And one just popped into my head too, that you can let your partner know let's say a hard shot is coming at them, they are at the net. And I'm sure we talked about this before on the podcast, but just let them know, just let it go, because a lot of times I understand that you have a better angle.

[Ian Westermann] Yes. [Mark Hammelman] Sometimes all it get out on my mouth is just let it and that's one of the few times when you can tell your partner that, 'Hey, I think it's going out.'
[Ian Westermann] Yes.
[Mark Hammelman] Just make sure it's going out I guess.
[Ian Westermann] No that's a great one. I'm glad that you thought about that. The way I usually communicate that is by yelling no. Kind of call him off and no don't. Meaning don't hit it and yes I agree with what you said that you should probably really be pretty sure about it to call them off as they're getting ready to hit the shot, because it can be disruptive, but if you know it's going out, it's not always like you said its not always obvious to them. So over communicate.
[Mark Hammelman] Yes, yes. There's been a couple of times where my partner has his racket up and it just comes up [inaudible].
[Ian Westermann] Sure.
[Mark Hammelman] But yes that's definitely another way to improve your communication.
[Ian Westermann] Alright, let's move on to our next topic which is what to talk about between points and what you guys should be doing between points is definitely encouraging each other. Trying to keep a positive attitude and definitely positive communication. You should never be showing your partner any negative reactions. We've talked about that on different mental tennis podcast's, but besides that there's a lot of tactical things that definitely that are beneficial-- things such as where you're going to aim your serve, whether be at the body, down the middle or out wide. Can talk about poaching-- maybe you're going to fake and stay or maybe you're going to actually plan on crossing over and cutting off the serve. So that's something you're definitely going to let your partner know so that they cover behind you. And there's other things as well. What are somethings that comes to mind right away Mark as far as communication in between points?
[Mark Hammelman] Just being positive I think and it's not talking to body language. Sometimes I'd like to run back to my partner.
[Ian Westermann] Yes.
[Mark Hammelman] After good or bad points, you see the [inaudible] sprinting in between points.
[Ian Westermann] Yes.
[Mark Hammelman] I love it when my partner comes over and says great shot. So I think non-verbal cues too. Put that a lot, but yes definitely in between every points I would at least make eye contact. Let your partner know what's going on. Even if you're using signals. A lot of people say that they use signals, well, you still need to give them something. I don't know why maybe it's just a routine or habit, but it's a habit that a lot of good tennis player have.

[Ian Westermann] Yes. I think it's good emotional support and definitely from personal experience I know that after a double fault or after a missed return of serve, often an easy serve. Definitely, after an easy mistake, I really appreciate it when my partner makes the effort. I like how you're talking about actually like jogging back or running back to the base line to be like, 'Alright, come on let's go.' That just show so much support and kind of positive energy and speaking from experience, that helps a great deal. You were always good at that Mark. You're a good supporter.
[Mark Hammleman] Yes, sometimes I had to be Ian.
[Ian Westermann] Nice. Good one, Mark. You did.
[Mark Hammelman] I don't know sometimes I'd run back Ian, and give you a high 5 and sometimes after points that we'd lose. And you would slap my hand so hard, but I have to stop doing that for a little bit because I wasn't ready for the next point.

[Ian Westermann] Yes I think that's a good point and even if your partner is seemingly in a bad mood. If you just kind of let them be on their own and kind of let them sulk back there on the base line, chances are they probably are not going to pull out of it on their own. And so be a good partner and do your best. It might not help immediately, but if you continue to support them and you continue to stay positive, that's probably going to be your best chance to turn things around at least for your partner and hopefully give them some positive energy and get them back into the match.

But yes definitely something that I definitely need myself personally. Again my tendencies to be pretty intense and really into it. I kind of have big ups and downs. It's kind of my personality on the court which I've been working on a lot recently. Since college, since then I really realized that's been a big thing that has definitely held me back, but if your partner is like that. They really would appreciates some support even if it doesn't look like they do overtly. If you just leave them alone they're probably going to feel worse about themselves.
[Mark Hammelman] Yes that's true.
[Ian Westermann] Alright, one more thing before we talk about during change overs and that's tactically I think you guys should be talking about your opponents strengths, their weaknesses. What's strategies that they are trying to implement. You should be talking to your partners and say, 'Hey, I noticed that they're trying to do this when you serve on the ad side, etc' And notice their tendencies. What shots they like to try so that you guys can talk about that and as a team start to anticipate and play together and kind of form a strategy around that.
If you guys don't talk about those things, a lot of times it won't be until after the match that you realize that whenever they were up in a game they always hit hard down the middle on return of serve or when they were down they like to lob on the ad outside or something like that. If you guys don't talk about that stuff, a lot of times it will kind of pass you by if you just don't pay much attention to it. So I think tactically players should be talking a lot as well. Anything to add before I go the last?
[Mark Hammelman] No, that was good.
[Ian Westermann] Alright, so change over's-- this will be the last little bit. Personally what I wrote down here on my little outline is I think that change over's should kind of be a time to relax and kind of unplug a little bit and just kind of take a little break. During games I tend to be pretty intense once again and I think it's good to just kind of sit, relax for 30 seconds, get some water, kind of get up, kind of refreshed again and get back into it. I think it might be dangerous to stay up and fully alert all the time and not giving yourself a little break to calm down and relax a bit, but maybe you have a different point of view on that Mark. What do you think?

[Mark Hammelman] Yes, definitely you shouldn't be talking too much tactic on change overs. Maybe simple things, but hopefully going into the match you have some stuff that you want to do. Yes, definitely, it's definitely time for yourself. A lot of times I see people over analyzing things on change overs.
[Ian Westermann] Yes.
[Mark Hammelman] I do like to get my partner simple reminders.
[Ian Westermann] Sure.
[Mark Hammelman] Just keep it simple. So a change over is kind of time to grab your drink. Keep your mind fresh. Maybe go over 1 or 2 things at most. And yes and then when it's time, get up and get out there.

[Ian Westermann] Good stuff. Well, I'm going to wrap up the topic with that and Dana hopefully that answers your questions and gives you a good kind of broad overview of communication in general. Mark and I went over some of those things kind of quickly and went into more detail on others. If any of you listening would like more details on any of those specific topics, definitely let me know, but I think that was a good general outline of what you guys should be doing during a doubles match and obviously I don't know how many individual ways to communicate you and I just talked about Mark, but there's obviously a lot of different circumstances and ways and reasons that we should be talking during a doubles match and so hopefully our listeners got a lot out of these, but Mark thanks very much for your insights as always. It was good to talk to you about this and I look forward to having you back on the show again soon.
[Mark Hammelman] Your welcome. [music] [music] [music] [music]

[Ian Westermann] Thanks very much for joining myself and Mark on today's show and for today's shoutouts I'd like to give up a shout out to a very special group of people. Myself and Mark just finished the second Essential Tennis clinic in Palm Springs, California yesterday. It was on the 2nd and 3rd of January and we had 12 people come out for a clinic that myself and Mark ran and first of all, Mark I'd like to thank you for the time that you put in. I would not have been able to make the event a success without you. So thanks very much for the time and the effort that you put into it and myself and everybody who attended really appreciated it. So thanks very much.
[Mark Hammelman] No, actually I'm still waiting for the car you promised me though.
[Ian Westermann] Did you say a car?
[Mark Hammelman] A car.
[Ian Westermann] Oh, I said card, sorry.
[Mark Hammelman] Well, that changes things. I had a good time. Now it's a good time. I definitely like giving instruction to people who are really looking for it. Half the time I say stuff to people and it's like I'm just going through the motions.

[Ian Westermann] Yes and with that I want to recognize everybody who attended the clinic and I completely agree with Mark. These are people who went out of their way to come to California, most everybody was not from California. They traveled from somewhere other in the country and these are people who have a big passion for the game. They love the sport. You guys all worked very hard and Mark and I just had a really good time working with all of you. So Angie, Nikki, Sherry, John, Mark, Lynn, Crissy, Bryan, Ben, Gary, Tobby and Nuam. You guys are all awesome. Thanks very much and people traveled again from all over.

We had attendees from Pennsylvania, Utah, Louisiana, Arizona, Texas, Illinois, Oklahoma, and 2 people from California as well. So people really came from all over the country to attend. It just really makes it exciting for myself and Mark to do what we do and teach and so, again we're great to work with. Anything else Mark before we wrap it up?

[Mark Hammelman] No, I mean for those of you that didn't make it, you should definitely look into it. I mean for the money especially, it's a great deal. How many times, I think one of our best session was the video session and I don't think too many teaching pros are going to the hassle of doing that, stopping and analyzing your strokes. So that alone, I think was worth it for those that made it to the clinic. I really had a great time too, but they got a lot out of it.
[Ian Westermann] Yes, we really, I did my best to try to cover a little bit of everything and on Saturday we worked on technique. We did work on ground strokes and volleys as well. So we did kind of an over all technique day on Saturday. On Sunday, we worked on strategy both singles and doubles and as Mark was talking about, we did a video analysis session in the conference room at the hotel where we were staying. So we all sat down together and we reviewed stroke technique and also singles and doubles strategy of all tape that I had filmed the day before of the attendees.

So yes, that something I'm going to continue doing in future clinics and if you're interested in participating in one of these, just make sure that you keep on listening to the newest podcast and in the near future I'm going to have a section on the website where you guys would be able to view upcoming clinics and you've be able to sign up on essentialtennis.com for upcoming clinics and I'm looking to do another Palm Springs clinic in probably the fall of 2010. So I'm looking forward to that and Mark hopefully you can help us out for that one as well.
[Mark Hammelman] Absolutely. [music] [music] [music]