Essential Tennis Podcast #106
[music] Welcome to the Essential Tennis Podcast. If you love tennis and want to improve your game, this podcast is for you. Whether it's technique, strategy, equipment or the mental game, tennis professional Ian Westermann is here to make you a better player. And now, here's Ian!
Ian Westermann : Hi, and welcome to the Essential Tennis Podcast. Your place for free, expert, tennis instruction that can truly help you improve your game.
Today's episode of the Essential Tennis Podcast is brought to you by ProTranscript.com.
Well today's episode of the Podcast is going to be a re-run. I'm going to chose one of the most popular podcast episodes that I've done, and that is my first interview with Andy Zodan and this was originally aired as Podcast #88.
The reason why I'm doing this is my wife went into labour two days ago on the 20th, at about 8pm or 9pm and she gave birth to our first child on Sunday the 21st around 5am EST.
So needless to say, I'm a little busy.
And my wife and daughter are still at the hospital-- she needed me to come home to grab a couple extra things for her. They are both doing great and I'm really proud of my wife and I'll be heading back to the hospital in a couple or minutes.
But I haven't missed a Monday in two years so I'm happy she needed me to come home to get some stuff so I could re-release episode #88 of the Essential Tennis Podcast.
So, with that, we'll go ahead and get to the show. Thank you guys for your understanding in me re-releasing this show, but it's really a great conversation. Several of you guys I'm sure probably haven't heard it before. You definitely need to check out the archives at
essentialtennis.com/podcasts-- there is so much good content there.
Alright, let's go ahead and get down to business. Sit back, relax and get ready for some great tennis instruction. [music] [music] [music] [music]
My guest today on the Essential Tennis Podcast is Andy Zodan-- Andy, welcome to the show.
Andy : Great to be here, Ian. Thanks for having me.
Ian : You bet. It's great to have you here. Andy is the host of In the Tennis Zone, which is a local tennis radio show in Colorado. Andy also takes the audio from that show and puts it on iTunes as a podcast. I definitely recommend that all of you listening go check out the podcast on iTunes, even if you're not in the Colorado area. Andy has lots of excellent guests that he gets on his show. Some of the names that he's had recently are: Rod Laver, Brad Gilbert, Billy Jean Keen, Justin Gimmelstob-just to name a few. He's got a lot of podcast archives with interviews with tennis greats such as those.

A really enjoyable show you put on, Andy. Why don't you tell us a little about what you're doing in tennis while that show is running. Tell us about your teaching background. Tell us a little bit about what you're doing in tennis.
Andy : I am basically the director of tennis at a country club here in Denver. I do coach high school tennis as well. Work with a lot of high performance juniors. I grew up--my tennis career started in Texas in the early '70s taking lessons in Dallas.

My first doubles partner was a guy named Craig Carden, who actually became a serious tour coach himself in the likes of Martina Navapalova, and Lindsay Davenport. Was coaching players that went to the semi-finals or better at Wilmbledon a number of times. I was just lucky to be in a group of kids that all grew up to take tennis seriously.

I played at the University of Texas, and began my coaching career in the early '80s in TX. Then moved to CO in 2001. So I've been coaching here ever since. I started doing the radio show here a couple of years ago, and had kind of spun that off of-- having been a journalist; I did a lot of tennis writing. I've been a coach, I've obviously continued playing as well.

Now I've enjoyed doing radio, and as you say, I've been fortunate to be able to --through some great contacts in the sort--get some really high profile guests on the Tennis Zone. It's been a terrific experience.
Ian : That's really cool. You're the perfect guest for the Essential Tennis podcast, because the listeners of this show are--I typically describe them as 'crazy.' [laughter]
Andy : That's perfect!
Ian : Yeah. [laughter] They just have a passion for the game, and it's easy to hear by listening to you talking, and talking about your experiences in tennis, that you're obviously a 'lifer.' This is something you've been doing for your entire life. You love it. As you keep going, you kind of take on more and more and get more into the sport. And into teaching and coaching. It's great to have you on the show. You're a perfect fit
for us.

Andy : Well, I appreciate it. And I think like yourself, Ian--I think we all realize that as local tennis pros, and guys that aren't out on the tour and big names on TV, that it's important on a local level for us to continue to generate excitement and enthusiasm for the sport.

We went through a period of time where the sport kind of flattened out and was a little bit stagnant with respect to growth. I think if people like yourself, and some of the things that I'm doing --and obviously we're not the only two. There are a lot of guys around the country that are helping with this effort. But if we don't get in the trenches and try to make sure we keep tennis in the forefront of people's minds, then we are certainly competing with a lot of other sports, a lot of other interests, and we're going to maintain a good growth level, these are the things we're going to have to do.
So thanks to you for what you're doing as well. Obviously taking the time that you're taking to put on this show is a fantastic effort on your part.
Ian : Thank you. Yeah, I'm doing my best, and I agree. With many of us working at grassroots type efforts like this to build enthusiasm for the sport, I think it can continue to grow.
You're right. There's so much competition out there with other sports. Especially for young kids these days. It's tough to get them to stick with tennis, but I think stuff like this can help.
Andy : Absolutely.
Ian : Speaking of the modern game and how it's grown recently and really advanced at the professional level--and I guess at the amateur level as well-- as far as how people are perceiving the style of play. The style of play certainly has changed over the last 20 yrs. or so.

What Andy and I are going to be talking about today --and I'm curious to pick Andy's brain about 4 specific topics having to do with the modern game. He and I are going to talk about a couple of specific elements that are usually associated with the modern game, and how it's played over the last 10-15 years. And we're going to talk about whether or not these things are necessarily good for the average recreational type player to copy.

When we watch the pros on TV, the game is so fast these days. So powerful. So strong. We're going to talk about a couple of those elements and whether or not we feel it's good for you guys to be copying this. Both of us have a lot of teaching experience, and I'm curious to see how we line up as far as our opinions on these topics, Andy.
But let's kick things off with the extreme grips. Specifically on the forehand side, the full Western grip, and maybe even semi-Western. I'm curious what your thoughts are on-
And let's keep things around maybe 3, 4, 5 level. You're avg. level club player. Do you feel like copying the pros, and what grips they're using in the modern game, is a good thing for this level player?
Andy : Well, I think it can be, but I don't think it needs to be forced.
I'm definitely considered by people that know me, to be a very conservative old school guy. With that said, I certainly won't prevent a young player from being able to ascend to the higher levels of the game. I've coached a lot of kids that are playing Division 1 college tennis, and some that have gone into professional ranks and done pretty well. I'm not averse to that, but I think what you have to be careful with is forcing extreme grips and extreme swings on any player.

Here's my philosophy. When I started playing tennis, back in the early '70s, you could teach the average to slightly above average athlete to emulate the games being played by the top players in the world. You could teach an 11-year old like me how to slice the ball on a back-hand side like Ken Roswall. You could teach kids how to go through the ball with a long finish, and a long time spent in the hitting zone with the racket head lining up to the target like Jimmy Connors on his backhand. Because there was a lot of margin for error in those swings. If your timing wasn't impeccable, you could still come up with a decent shot.

I think nowadays , if you try to teach a young kid to take a swing at the forehand like a Raphael Nadal, or you try to teach a little girl how to do what Serena or Venus Williams are doing, I think you're asking people to bite off a little more than they might be able to chew. I think there's nothing wrong, especially when you consider the technology that we have now. To teach players to swing at the ball similarly to the way Chris Howard did. Similarly to the way Rod Laver did and some of the guys in the old days. You couple of that type of the fundamental some of these with today's technology and you're still able to play a very strong, very reliable game that probably had the tendency to keep you little more injury free than what I'm seeing kids try to do this days.

I see a lot of pros that are taking kids from the age of 6, 7, 8 years old and teaching them that real severe over the shoulder finish with that extreme forehand grip and I think it's kind of an all or nothing proposition.

I think you got kids and adults that have problems dealing with low balls. I think you have a problem converting over to the ability to play the net with those extreme forehand grips. I think you obviously have you move the grip over very short lead to learn how hit a proper serve and I just think that there's a lot to be done exactly right to be able to master using that grip.

And so if the kid comes out and he holds that racket in semi- Western or Western grip and he's hitting the ball clean and his hitting the hit consistently able to hit targets. Nothing hurts at the end of the session. Now might say maybe this kid is a natural for using this grip, but to go out into absolutely taking a grip of take a group of tennis club kids in a campus and, "Okay, we're going to hit extreme Western forehand grips." I think that's were some mistakes are being and I think it's being taken too for granted which is just, because the top players of the world are doing this right now, but that means it's design for everybody to play that way. Think there needs to be a little bit more of the separation they still act like a good girl to has to whether or no to teach that person to play game it's eventually design to be played on a tour versus a goddess designed to be a good 455 of player for the rest of his life.

Ian : Lot's of good stuff in there Andy and I agree. I definitely see pros who take both extremes. I've seen pros who you use the term 'old school. ' I've seen pros who are very old school and kind of are still grasping on to their thoughts of how the game used to be played in very classic, and that can be good for some students.

But I agree with you that I think where pros really gets themselves in trouble and get their students in the trouble is when they take one style of play or one way to swing the racket and they make everyone of their students do at the same way. Whether it happens to be really old school or really modern or something in between there or whatever. I think you're right. Different people have different bodies. They have different athletic abilities and so--just like we see on tour. Different types of games. Different types of swings. There's certainly similarities, but even among the recreation of players it's not cut and dry. Everybody's got different amounts of talents, and their body works in different ways from other players.
So I'm curious. Have you ever actually instructed a student to go to a full Western. Something that's extremes as an actual full Western?
Andy: I would say probably not. What I would say I have probably done is I have allowed them to keep it. If it was something that was already working for them, then I would say-
For instance, it was a kid that I'm working with now who's just about to turn 15. He's 14 years old and top hundred player in the country in the 14s. A very good high school player now. When he was 8 or 9 years old and he had that full Western grip, I didn't bother missing with it, because so many of the balls that he was hitting were like my height or higher.
So he really almost had the grip to the racket that way and people said to me, 'Well eventually he's going to have to do this that the other,' and I said, 'Well eventually we will.' When he grows.
But what I was more concerned with at the time was that he was learning how to win. And to me that's a skill that--when it can be grasped, you let the kid grasp it. Once they've learned how to win. One they have programmed their mind on what to do in a certain situation. To me that's like internal problem solving. That's a skill beyond the tennis court.

So that's a lot of kids doing well in the 10 and unders, and the 12 and unders land earning how to win, game changes can then readily be made based on the fact that it is 8, 9, 10 year old kid. This kid has established a lot of confidence in himself to be able to get the job done however need be.

Now he turns 11, 12, 13 years old. We starts sending him off to [unknown] Academy for the weekend and doing some high performance training at certain USTA national campus where they can really spend the amount of time necessary . For me to see the kid an hour or two or three a week doesn't allow for me to make a grip change like it does for him to go to voluntaries and spend 6
-8 hours a day on the tennis court for a week straight.

And then he comes home a week later with a slightly different forehand, one that I've would have converting him over to anyway. And now his forehand is going to be able to take him to whatever level his game is able to take him. I mean I certainly expect for this kid barring any unforeseen health situations or what have you injuries, could be able to be a scholarship Division 1 level player. And we change that to the game incrementally. I allowed that what that extreme Western grip, but I also knew that the kid had phenomenal hands and was going to be a terrific volleyer, and I didn't want anything to happen to prevent that.
So I was hoping that we would move that grip over a little bit to be able to do a little bit more with it. A little bit variety. And that was exactly how was involved.
It takes a lot of different sources to be able to build a player's game these days. I don't put it all upon myself and I don't think any pro should. I think if you got all the resources that to have all sort of contributes to the development of a player. I think that's all part of the modern game as well, is realizing that one pro doesn't necessarily have all the answers and I would certainly be the first to admit that I don't.

Ian : Alright, good stuff Andy. Let's go ahead and move on to our second topic, which has to do with different forehand follow throughs. The 2 most popular recently have been the windshield wiper follow through and the reverse follow through. Reverse follow through being the one that Nadal has kind of really made popular finishing on the same side of his body, and windshield wiper finishing on the opposite side of the body, but low down by the hip. Just to give our listeners some guidance there in case you are not exactly sure what I am talking about.
But what is your opinion on those 2 techniques and how they relate to the recreational player?
Andy: I think it's something hat you have to be real careful with, because one of the things that those 2 swings do not promote is an extended follow through towards the target. And again, as we discussed a little bit earlier, I think that margin for error in your game is something that you need to have if you're not an exceptionally supremely gifted player.

And when I say exceptionally extremely gifted, player. I mean, if you're not maybe the better sectional ranked player, but normally they are nationally might as well. You want to give your self good margin for error. If you're not out on the tennis 4 or 5 hours a day every day, you want to make sure that you are coming through that hitting zone and giving yourself an extended finish towards your target.

So to me--let's start with the windshield wiper finish coming across the body. I think if that happens too prematurely, and if a player that comes off that ball a little bit too early. You're going to have a lot of shank and frame balls as opposed to allowing your racket head to go through the hitting zone and letting that swing evolve into something that eventually finishes back around to the other side through racket head speed that's generated to through the confidence of getting better and better and more and more experience.

I think a lot of times crossing nowadays seem do want to put the cart before the horse a little bit and they immediately want people to cover your finish over the shoulder. A little bit that the opposite hit like you were describing, and I don't think that it promotes the racket spending enough time in the hitting zone to give yourself that margin for error to follow through towards your target.

If you're giving yourself the extra length going forward through the swing, I feel like if you just a little slightly off with your timing you can still have a good result, because the racket is traveling in the proper direction that it needs to go to create another proper direction with that shot.

If you're not absolutely perfect with the timing of the strike point when you're coming up over the shoulder or over the head or with a reverse follow through like Nadal, then you're going to just have a lot of missed hits. And it's really tough to develop any sense of confidence, because you just don't have a lot of consistency and reliability.

To me, the essence of this sport the way in the way it was originally designed to be played was it learn how to maintain a rally. You don't have to keep the ball until you don't know how to hit all back and forth with somebody consistently, and then once you master that skill, then you go to adding the bells and whistles. Adding the weapons.

I think nowadays with the modern game we go right to the weapons and skip to the whole step of the ability to just hit a nice clean ball back and forth. Maintain a rally 10, 12, 14, 16, 20 times. And I think that's where we're missing a lot in the development about players. That's why I think in this country to a large extent, people scratching our heads as to why are the Americans falling behind with respect to the development of our players. I think we're going for too much too early with such an immediate gratification type of society, and I think that shows up in our game styles with our tennis players.

Ian : Yes, it's a very interesting to actually make a social connection there between how people are so infatuated with the power of game being able to hit the ball fast and hard and with the lot of top spin, and actually making that connection with kind of with our society i s like here in America. You're talking about immediate gratification etc. And all of us grow up playing on fast hard courts, whereas, over in Europe there's a lot of clay court play and people have to learn how to develop points and actually get into a rally and be patient.

And such a lack of patience here and I feel like--especially the players who are out there out there... I deal, because of my website, I deal with a lot of players who don't have the money for instruction, and they're looking for guidance in how to hit the ball and how to improve their game. And so much with the instruction out there on the internet is: Learn how Roger Federer hits his forehand or How Andy Roddick hits the serve and it's all of this extremely advanced theory and technique. And we're talking about 3.0 beginner level of players who are reading and buying this and trying to implement it.
And buying the cart before the horse. I think that’s a good way of describing it.
You used that phrase earlier, Andy. I think so many recreational players and beginner players, they are seeing what's happening on TV, and so many people without a lot of experience figure. 'Well look at that. They're not making to look that difficult, it can't be that tough. And they go out and try to actually copy what they are seeing--and at that it can be really frustrating for the player and really frustrating for the pros as well when they come in and try to change those misperceptions that that is how there are supposed to be swinging.
Andy: Well, that's it. There's an old saying 'Sex sells.' And Roger Federer's forehand is sexy. So is Andy Roddick serve, right?
So when you look at it from that stand point, if you want to sell something, whether what they need or what they want or what's realistic for them, a lot of times people don't care. I mean they just say, 'Hey, listen, People are going to see a picture of Andy Roddick serving.' That's going to gravitate toward it. They are going to see one of best backhands in the world. Or they're going to see Serena Williams take this ball out of the air from three quarters to even a court with this swing and volley thing. This is what people need to try to emulate.
The fact of the matter is probably I would say 75% of all the people that are playing tennis in this country will never in their wildest dreams hit a tennis ball like that.
Ian : Right.
Andy: Now with that said, I think there are certain things that I think can be taken from some of the best players of all time that I think are universally applicable to the average club player or even sharply better.

Watch Andre Agassi line at the hit of forehand and the way he uses his left are and he extends that almost at any--let's say 45 degree angle across his body. That's something that you can teach any player to do no matter how they grip the racket on their forehand side and it's going to have give them a better forehand. And that's something that you can look at and study in the pro game.

You can say, 'What is it that makes it such a different for Agassi to do that?' Well, you're creating a distance between your body and the ball that is going to give you a consistent contact point #1. You are going to give yourself better balance just like getting that left arm. If you watch somebody on a surfboard that kind of looks the way Agassi did when he lined up to hit his forehand, and you're going to have just great alignment.

One of the subjects that I know we're going to talk about was the open stance. If you're going to have an open stance, that doesn't mean that your stance was open to the waist up. It's open from the waist down. But you have still got to turn your upper body to align yourself properly.

So if you wanted to look at Raphael Nadal's finish on his forehand, that may not be necessarily something that you want to copy unless you're supremely talented. But I don't care if you're a 2.5 player or 5.0 player. You're going to do what Agassi did in lining up a forehand, because I think that's one of those fundamentals that is truly a fundamental, and not just a press release and trying to emulate one of the top players of all time.

Ian : So I've got a question for you then. I like for you describing the difference between something that every pro does and every good solid upper level player has done for decades and decades-such as good rotation with the upper body as you're describing with Agassi-- as opposed to some of the more modern things that only extremely, extremely talented athletes are doing.

How do we tell and how do our listeners know the difference between something that is--and this is why I called my website Essential Tennis, because this is kind of my teaching style, is I find what's fundamental and what has to be done in order to be a solid player, and I start with that. As opposed to the more flashy upper level type stuff that see on TV.

But how can listeners know what to work on that's solid? What fundamental? What's essential? And what is beyond their grasp? If not for the future, at least definitely starting off. How can our listeners tell the difference between those two things?

Andy: Well, I think it's definitely a very fine line. And a guy that lives here Denver by the name of John Vincent, who was a phenomenal tennis coach and tennis player in his own right, used to say, 'There's a very fine line between fundamentals and preferences.' And a lot of tennis pros try to take their preferences and impose those as fundamentals, when they're not necessarily the case.

I think when it comes down to it, you want to consult a pro locally. And you want to sort of throw a couple of different options on the table and see what they have to say.
I think as far as some of the basic fundamentals that you would be able to get your listeners to really be able to gravitate toward and be able to really trust and believe in, obviously working on your balance. On your feet. A lot of times you got people who you'll see them swing in the air and somehow or other, all their weight is on their back foot. They've lifted their left leg to hit that forehand.

One of best tips to that I ever got in my golf game and that I've been able to teach my tennis players it that: Even and equal weight distribution between my two feet. When of course I had time to get that. And I think when you're talking about 3.0 and 3. 5 players, a lot of times the pace to the ball that they hit allows people to take the time and use the proper footwork to get their feet and to get their balance proper. I think that has a lot to do with hitting the ball well.

A lot of times a guy will come to me and say, 'I can't hit the backhand.' And I look at his footwork and I can see nothing happening a lot of times. Well, I'll see improper steps. Stepping with the wrong foot. Finishing with the wrong foot. And if they just get their footwork cleaned up and then sink with their swing releases--all of the sudden it's not that they had a bad swing. It's just that the footwork that went into lining up that ball was improper.

Let's say they are a right-handed player and they are moving to their left to hit the backhand and the final step which they take to that backhand is a left footed step to the ball, and they end up opening up their stance drastically. Obviously that's not going to necessarily be something that's going to give them proper balance and allot them with the court. If we can just say, 'Okay we'll need to just make sure that with that last step taken to the ball is a right footstep. Bring it to the ball and hold still.' You'll clean up your alignment and probably a lot more accurate and still be able to generate plenty of power--certainly with the technology of the rackets these days. That's what they are designed to do.

I think obviously making sure that you are quick on your feet and that you're making lots of short little steps. I don't like little dance steps as opposed to these big Frankenstein long steps to the ball. That's going to be something that's going to help any player out there.

As far as the serve is concerned, make sure that you're standing up real nice and straight, and after you release your toss you continue it to let your toss are extend. I call it a toss and stretch. Your know, you see the sort of people who toss the ball up and then their arm just immediately drops. Their body sort of jack knifes forward. They bend at the waist for a little bit. Wonder why every serve was going into the net. There's a reason for that. There's no proper posture, so

There are certain things that when I think about all the different lessons that I gave to all the different levels of players, that no matter who I'm with, they're just certain things that I think that I said before are sort of universally applicable: footwork, balance, posture.

Those kinds of things. Making sure that you're stepping into the ball with the proper foot. I'm still an old school guy that--I'm anti- open stance, but I think if you've got time to close your stance and step to the ball with the foot furthest from the ball, you are always going to be able to bring a little bit more body power and strength to the shot ,and you also going to have better alignment in hitting the shot.

If you don't have time you've going to go open stance and you do it properly. Obviously with the pace of the ball make hit these days there's no way around that. But I don't think you want to necessarily always have an open stance shot even when you have time to close that stance.
Ian : Well, Andy, in typical Essential Tennis Podcast fashion , we've only got to half of the topics that we were hoping to,
Andy: Sorry to be a long-winded. I apologize.
Ian : No. This happens virtually every show. When I outline a show for myself, or when I have a guest, almost to always we don't get to as much as we hoped to.
But what we did get to, I think will be extremely helpful, and in closing just for the two topics that we did go over. The full Western or the semi Western grips. The different forehand follow-throughs. I'm going to ask you at one at a time if you feel they are preference or fundamental,. Just to wrap up. So full Western grip. Is that preference or is that fundamental?
Andy: Absolutely a preference.
Ian : And windshield wiper follow through or reverse. Follow through on the forehand side. Is that a preference or fundamental?
Andy: That's definitely a preference as well. The others are old school. I think when you start talking about, 'I intend to play professional tennis,' then your fundamentals are going to become a little bit more extreme as weapons become more important. But as far as the development of the game that's reliable; that will have a tendency to keep you injury free; I think that the fundamentals are a nice long hitting zone coming through the clean contact point--which doesn't necessarily include the reverse follow through or the windshield wiper follow through, or the open stance. Again, I'm not anti to these things, but if you're able to do it and they feel good, then go with it. But as far as if being something that you absolutely have to do to become a good tennis player, I definitely don't believe that.
Ian : Well, Andy I want to thank you very much of your time. It's been great talking to you. I've enjoyed it very much.
Before we wrap things up, I've already told people to go the iTunes to check out your podcast there. Where can people find you on the web? What's your website address?
Andy: Website is TennisZone1510. All one word; no spaces. TennisZone1510.com, and that's the website which is basically the best of the TennisZone.
As you mentioned, we have a Rod Laver on there. In the last month of the show we had a Rod Laver. We had Brett Staley, Toni Trabert, Brad Gilbert a couple of times. We had Darren Cahill, Justin Gimelstob. We were very fortunate, Owen Davidson is a dear friend of mine, and he was on several times. And they are just really phenomenal.

And it's funny, because I talk to them about a lot of these various subjects. Having been around as long as they have, and seeing the evolution. I'm 48 years old. These guys make me look like I've been playing tennis 2 weeks which was especially [inaudible] they've got. And so we've talked about some of the various subjects and to hear some of the stories on some on the matches that were played back in their days is really fascinating.
So I appreciate you letting your listeners know about that website and about my show, and I look forward to having you come on the Tenniszone when we start season #3 in February.
Ian : I would enjoy that very much and I look forward to that.
Yes, definitely check it out everybody. I've listened to several of your most recent episodes, and you do a great job of doing the interviews. And you can't help-- as being a tennis fan like myself and everybody listening--you really can't help to be interested in and really keyed in on guys like the people that you have on the show. So it's an excellent show.
Andy: A lot of fun.
Ian : Yes. Well, Andy thanks very much. It's been great having you on.
Andy: Thank you Ian.
Ian : And I look forward to talking to you again. Maybe we can have you back and talk about the other two topics that we had on the table.
Andy: Anytime you need me. I would enjoy doing it and I appreciate you in all that you doing as well, I enjoyed it very much.
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Ian : Alright, that brings the Essential Tennis Podcast Episode #88 to a close.
Thank you very much for joining me today, and I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Andy Zodan as much as I did.
Real quick as we wrap up today, I just have 2 quick shout outs and they are going to go to 2 new people that I've been in contact with recently this past week. The first one is Roger in California. And the second is Kevin in Korea. I've send a couple of e-mails back and forth with both of them having to do with their tennis game, and we probably have a couple of topics in there that we're going to use in the Podcast coming from each of them. So great to hear from both of you guys. And it's great to have you both as listeners.

And real quickly before I sign off, I just want to again remind you guys about the cleaning in Palm Springs. Definitely let me know if you're interested in that, that's January 2nd and 3rd. And send me an e-mail if you'd like more information. ian@essentialtennis.com.
Alright, thanks very much everybody. Take care and good luck with your tennis.