When is the right time to poach when you’re playing doubles? That is the topic of today’s video tennis lesson!
I’ve many times heard it suggested that you should make your move on the poach when your partner’s serve hit’s the service box. I’m definitely not a fan of that and in the video above I’ll explain why.
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As always, thanks for watching 🙂
Incredibly helpful team, Ian. thank you. Last night I made my first successful agressive poach timing my movement as the returner was initiating her forward swing. My question now is about the timing of the split step before we start moving diagonally. When should we land from our split step? Shall we land as the returner is taking his/her racquet back so that we can start moving when he/she swings forward?
Thank you
Very good
Ian, Great Job. My question knowing it would depend on how fast the returners ball comes back, and how fast we are, but how far across the court should we strive to reach? Center strap? Cause it seems like this works well but still a lot of returns still go by.
Ian; my name is Dom. I am 72 and play mostly doubles.
I learnt doubles strategies on hard court, over the past 15 years. I was taught that the "bread and butter" return of serve should land near the far corner of the diagonally opposite service box.
I now play mostly on slower har-tru courts and heard from a pro that the best return is a diagonal deep return.
What is your recommendation for slower courts?
Thanks
Dom
What about hand signals?
I was told with a hand signal to poach as soon as I hear my partner serve the ball! Go to the tape! Somethings fake ,again hand signal.
Good advice
Thank you, Jill!
Ian, it seems that the Bryan Bothers mostly pinch. In other words they start by reducing the court size for the returner and then, depending on what happens, it may turn into a poach or reset.Your thoughts? Tim
Question, where do you recommend the serve receiver's partner stand and when should he come in after his partner receives the serve? I always stand behind the service box to help call the serve and then worked my way after my partner has safely returned the ball cross court. That also helps prevent the lob over my head. Thank You
Ian – surely there are two parts tot he move here. The first move (made when the ball hits the box) is to mirror the ball depending on the placement of the serve. So, for a serve to the ad court, a step diagonally forward to the left for a wide serve or diagonally forward to the right for a T serve to the ad court. You make this move to best cover the possible angles of return irrespective of whether you are going to poach. Making this move as the ball bounces often distracts the returner and causes an error or weak return.
Then I agree on the timing of the second move to aggressively poach. Once the returner starts the forward swing they are committed so go for it and hope he hasn't read your mind !
I would add that as you get in to the match you should be timing/mapping the general location of the returner's shot. Sometimes they get pretty consistent. If that is so, you can take advantage of getting to that spot over the net a little quicker than normal. Of course that is a signal to them to change it up a little but you might get a couple of key points off of your moves.
GJ Perry, thanks for the question and and great idea Ian! I never heard that before but makes a lot of sense.
I am more and more interested in not just learning how how to hit, but how to play tennis. The video on poaching was good. I would also like to know how, why and when to play Austrailian, two back and two up. Also when playing two up when to cover middle vs covering alley.
Love your videos and am using them in my doubles game. At 75, I still want to improve my game!
Very useful info.
Where is discussion of racket path/pronation difference of slice vs. kick serve?
Good tip, especially if you have a slower serving partner.
Good tip – I will try that next time. What I have been using as a queue is watching the opponent's head, and wait until their eyes drop to look at the ball. I was figuring that once they do that, they do not know what the net person is doing. However, I think by using the racquet drop, I may get a bit more time to move. Once the opponent is committed to the shot, it does not matter that much if he knows he is being poached upon. An exception may be when the shot is hit wide to the returner, and he can just make his shot late, and thus push the ball up the vacant alley.
After you complete the poach, where should you hit it?
This depends on the positioning of your opponents.
As a general rule, how much serve practice/how often is optimal for good development? As you know, I'm a violin teacher, and I say 6-7 days/week, with increasing time depending on how good one is and how good a player you want to be. Is something similar true for serving? (that is, practice it every day? It's so physically demanding that I'm not sure if I'm just wimping out or not.) Also, if I'm struggling with ~55% consistency rate on both 1st and 2nd serves, (which sometimes improves during games, but over time evens back out as I can go multiple points of DF in a row), should I practice the 3 types of serves, kick/slice/flat, to multiple locations, & toss practice too, or just focus on 2nd serve until that % is higher?
Thanks Ian, very good tip. I will use it next time when playing social.
I've a question about serve. Where the ~2000 rpm in power flat serve came from? The kick serve rpm came because I purposely brush across the back of the ball. But in flat serve the concentration is hitting the ball hard at its center ?
Ahmed.
When the pros hit a 'flat' serve, it still has a lot of spin on it. This comes from the service motion, and pronation. These upward forces help create lots of topspin even though the ball is hit in a flatter/direct way. Hope that helps.
Look forward to the Videos
Yes, Ian that was a good question and very well answered. Thanks.
Hi Ian, enjoyed this brief video and totally agree with the concept. Your podcasts and videos are valuable because they give me one thing at a time to think about. (My limit for things to think about while playing is two. Anything more and I get choice paralysis.) Thanks for keeping it simple!
My strategy question is, what suggestions do you have for where to position yourself based on where the shot hit by you or your partner lands? For example, if I hit a deep corner shot I sneak up toward the net on that side of the court; if I hit a good drop shot I approach the net in hopes of a weak up-shot to hopefully put away. High lob to their backhand = mid court approach? Weak lob to middle of their court = back up on my side? See what I mean?
Thanks for your thoughts!
Kathy from Manhattan Beach
When hitting your serve, should you push more FORWARD with your right foot or UP??
Super Thank you very much. Clever analysys
Very good. Thanks.
Ian
I love to poach and I agree with your suggestion on waiting until the RofS drops his racquet
Down and commits to forehand or BH.
However, many times the RofS hits a soft return high over net just out of my reach.
How should I position myself to make a poach work with this kind of a regular return?
Hi Ian ,
Excellent tips . Thank you
Timely topic well done, ian. I do a lot of poaching and your suggestion that the timing should be adjustable to the serve and the returner is very important. I use poaching on serve not just to win points immediately, but also for other purposes–for example, to direct play so that we attack specific parts of the court by exposing them. I might choose to make it clear that I am going to poach by doing it a little early, for example, so that the returner will most likely hit behind me and open the court for my partner down the center(returner's partner follows the direction of my poach=open center). This is a poaching play, and my partner and I will be practicing it to polish the movements. Its success is due to the team's expanded awareness of the objectives of poaching, and using adjustable timing.
That's for watching, Stuart!
Could you discuss the importance of the net players involvement regardless of whether they are able to hit the ball or not.
Thanks,
T
Thanks for the practical tactics Ian. It's stuff like this that we can immediately incorporate into our games. I play mostly 4.5 dubs and have a question. When my partner is serving and I'm at the net I usually focus on watching where the ball lands in the court but I feel like I'd be in a better ready position if I solely focused on the returner. If I don't watch where the ball lands I won't be able to challenge a bad call which my partner is counting on me for. What's your recommendation here?
Good thoughts. Could you talk a bit about signals, why & when they help, and how to determine the best strategy to "signal" (based on the strengths of your opponents…), and how signals might change your timing. It occurred to me during your "when to poach" topic that if you signal "up the T" and that you'll move to cover at a diagonal and your partner is covering the ad baseline, your timing to start your move might be a bit different than not having the strategy in place.
Nice start to an idea. How about quantifying it, with ball speed, foot speed, and angle coverage, hoped for distance from net? Then you have the fake poach. This can be killer. Once you have established that you will poach, whether effectively or not, it can be easy to rip the attempted passing shot down the lane for a winner. Just forcing them to worry about each seems to cause most partnerships problems.
Good advise. However if u are using signals and are committed to the cross court return primarily and not responsible for down the line shot then against a good returner you may have to time a little earlier to cover the cross court return.
kamal
Playing singles opponent hits a deep approach shot to my backhand where and what kind of return should I make?
Hi Ian,
Good topic, thanks.
I believe that it is easier to poach when your partner serves towards the "T" in the service box. In this case you don't need to cover the alley too much.
Doubles serve strategy—2nd serve: Flat or spin/kick serve?
Useful video – thanks. As returners is it now a better set-up for both partners to start at the base line for the serve if the server's partner is likely to poach?
HI rosemary,
I'm finding it has more to do with the match up between the person poaching and the returner. A good returner makes the poach difficult often leaving an opportunity for the net player. A weaker return will be dealt with by a poacher so standing back can make sense. Give you more time.
So I adjust depending on the whether the poacher, returner or neither dominate. The more it favours my team the more aggressively I can position myself at the net.
Great comments on the poaching drill. The lesson I have learned is to never poach too early – staying home is many times your best strategy. As we age into our 80's I find in doubles it is wise to play one person up to the
net and one back – easier on reaching lobs.
Hi Ian, great topic!
Here is another question for you: Doubles strategy – Where to stay when your team is serving / returning?
I believe most of your students will benefit if you explain where the best position is for the server, the server partner, the returner, the returner partner, for the traditional formation, for the first serve and for the second serve.
From my own experience, I see many club level players positioning themselves not in the best position. That happens more with the server partner and the returner partner.
Hi Ian,
I'm a 3.5 player and I like to hit with pace. However, not all my opps hit the same. I played a match yestereday where my opp had very little pace, but was very consistent and a nice net game. Needless to say, I lost. My question: How do you play someone like that? I tried changing my pace, but I made a lot of unforced errors. I get very impatient. Suggestions?
Very good tip. My question Ian is should you always tell your partner who is serving by signal or otherwise when you are going to poach; or are there times when it is OK to free wheel it to poach?
Thanks Ian. Tom T.
My partner and I are 4.0"s. I say it's best to follow the ball throughout the point in order to best react to the next hit. My partner says to only look forward during the point and react to the opponent's eyes and movement. Weigh in on this one for us with your recommendations.
Excellent topic! I actually have a video coming out very soon that covers that topic. In short, a combination of both approaches is best 🙂 Watch for that video some time next week.
Another suggestion for one of your future topics concerning return of serve. I would love to hear what tips you can share in regards to returning a good high kick serve to a one handed backhand. I really struggle with this shot and am not sure if it's because of the height of the ball or the added speed the ball gets after bouncing. I'm also unsure about whether to hit a slice return or trying to come over it. Tks..
Great suggestion, thanks Joe!
Hi, Ian,
Again, thanks for all you do for us. I completely agree with timing your poach with the forward movement of the receiver's racquet. It's very difficult to change direction of the ball once the swing is committed. Further, IMHO, I think timing your 'fake poach' with the bounce of the ball in the service box IS a good thing as it gives the receiver plenty of time to pick up your movement at net and hopefully fall for your fake and give you a sitter or pressure him into an error. Best always, Richard in Tampa
when to cover the alley when at the net?
Great lesson on poaching. I need ed it because I like to poach, but some times I get a down the line ;passing shot done to me.It seems like I can't detect the body movement soon enough. Mable it's old age.
I have a question for you. Do you have a serve and volley drill. I know how to move forward. When hitting a bucket of balls I try to split about the time he would hit the ball. I find my self off balance after my spit step. That is really the question. How would I practice being balanced right after my split step and not just lunging forward even tho I am upright as far as my posture goes? I could practice just moving forward and split stepping every few feet I guess. Any help would be great or a video would be out of this world. I am sure more people have the same trouble.
Have you seen my series on the split step, John? It doesn't give any specific practice drills but would be an excellent place for you to start learning how to use it correctly:
https://www.essentialtennis.com/video/footwork/tennis-footwork-split-step-lesson-1-of-3/1749/
I have watched them all in the past. They are great. I will review them again. Thanks. Volleying at the net has its challenges but the moving in part with the balance is the part that messes with me. Maybe I can come up with a drill that will help. Thanks for the reply.
Great video as always. I will try it Friday 🙂
Let me know how it goes! Be sure to communicate with your partner 🙂
Hey Ian, thanks for this short video on when to time your poach at the net. Very helpful and useful reminder. I definitely agree with your explanation that the timing of the poach is some what of an art. 🙂
A suggestion for one of your future topics to present here, I would love to hear what tips you can share in regards to returning a lefty's serve delivered to the right-hander's backhand. In other words, how to return effectively a lefty's out-wide serve to a righty's backhand, when waiting to receive serve on the ad-court.
I've watched past video clips of Agassi and Djokovic return lefty's serve, they seem to return them well. But I can't quite pick up on their movement and technique to apply it to my return game. 🙁 Hope you can talk about this in one of your future posts. Thank you!!
–Derek
Great suggestion, Derek. I'll actually be coming out with a video about that on Thursday!
Good thoughts, but what it leaves off in a double scenario is communication with your serving partner. If they know you are going to poach (hand signal), and you jump early as ball hits in service box, then your partner can cover the down the line return as you switch sides.
You're absolutely correct, Chris, and that's a great comment. Moving really early on purpose can absolutely be a viable tactic to use assuming you communicate with your partner as you said. I didn't want to add on too many "what if's" for this video so kept it more simple instead.